Answers to a Few Good Questions

Here are a few questions I've received via email and my answers to them.  I felt it appropriate to share.

1 - I've spent years researching all the different building methods, systems, and materials.  I decided the best way to go was either panelized SIP or a modular with spray foam insulation.  Some of the modular people do that now.

** I believe I've looked at all the possibilitie: structural insulated panel (SIP), insulated concrete forms (ICF), typical modular, and modular with spray foam.  I wanted ICF or SIP, but found local site-built costs prohibitive.  Spray foam in a modular is great (that is actually what I started looking for), however SIP walls are even better because they eliminate nearly all thermal bridging found in a stud wall with spray foam.  Penn Lyon actually suggested using SIPs when they declined to use spray foam as I requested (they have had issues with nail pops in the past).  For those of you who go forward with your own SIP/modular project, I believe you'll find the cost reasonable - especially when compared to the same house site-built.

I've found the SIP/modular combination is the most cost effective way to go - bar none.  The other cool thing is that Penn Lyon can put anything you want in your house - high end or modest - and it comes in nearly finished.

2 - My biggest problem is trying to figure out if what we want to do is even financially feasible.  Land is going to eat up a good portion of our budget.  I am very curious how much you estimate your home will cost per square foot, excluding the cost of land.

** Honestly, I don't think we are going to know the exact number until we are done.  I can tell you that the four modules are $192,000, but the excavation and finish work still needs to be done (this can add significant cost to the project).  If I were to guess, I'd say that we are ~$110/sf.  Keep in mind, I am acting as my own GC for some things, and this is a pretty large house.  A soup-to-nuts package from a general contractor will be more (per square foot), but the overall cost would be lower for a smaller house.  I spoke to at least a dozen contractors - not one could site-build this house, with studs or SIPs, for the SIP/modular price.

3 - From what I've read standard SIP constructed homes have very little waste and get assembled very quickly on-site.  Why did you decide to do modular SIP?  Was it more costly than doing a panelized SIP?

** I first got a quote from a reputable company that assembles SIP houses.  Their cost to me for the structural shell (only) was $182,000 for R23 EPS SIPs. I estimate that going site-built would cost us approximately twice the modular cost.  What is really neat is the fact that all the construction efficiency of SIPs also help to make modular building more efficient as well.  When you add in the other benefits of modular: built inside in a controlled environment, reduced waste, built stronger to travel down the road, and a complete house built in three days start-to-finish, it is a total win-win.

4 - Did you hire an architect for a custom design or did you use plans that the SIP or modular people already had?

** I interviewed some architects, but decided that I could put the $25,000 fee to better use.  My wife and I designed the home from the ground up.  Well, she did the inside layout and I did all the engineering / energy efficiency stuff.  All the structural drawings and the like are done by the modular factory.  I expect that the cost would likely be a bit lower if we chose a plan from their standard list, but it can't be that different.  The cost to build modular SIP versus 2x6 and fiberglass (R23 EPS SIPS) is a NO-BRAINER.  It would cost more to put a layer of foam board over the outside of a stick-built house.  As long as you keep in mind how these houses are constructed - they are basically large boxes; however they can build some amazing stuff.  If you can afford the architect, go for it.  If you can't, and you are not able to create your own design, there are literally hundreds of "standard" modular designs to choose from.  Pick one of those and build it with SIPs.

4 - Did you have your land first and pick a house design that best fit the land or did you have your house design first and then tweak it to best fit the land you ended up with?

** Our project has sort of "evolved" over the past three years.  We knew we wanted to build a colonial even before we had land.  The main thing we could not determine until we had land was if we could do a garage under.  If you want to take advantage of solar energy, whether PV, hot water, or passive, you will want to keep direction in mind.  Finally, we had the opportunity to choose one of two different lots.  We chose the lot that allowed us to face the front of the house south.

We did learn one expensive lesson - make sure the land you purchase is buildable before you buy it!  You would be amazed at how long your project can be tied up, and how much it costs to satisfy the demands (Conservation, Building Department, etc.). 

5 - Correct me if I'm wrong, but if looks like you are not using SIPs on your roof.  How come?

** Correct!  The modular factory builds their folding roof systems so efficiently that the cost is quite low.  We could have gone with a SIP roof, but that would have needed to be constructed 100% onsite and involved a crew and a crane.  This also means your house is exposed to the weather until the roof is done.  It is far less costly to have the factory build a traditional roof system and then insulate it with spray foam.

6 - What were the factors that made you choose Oasis for your foundation over Superior Walls and others you may have looked at?

** Part of it was simply customer service.  I spoke with both Oasis and Superior.  Oasis is just great to work with.  I found the guys at Superior acted "superior" for no good reason.  The Oasis walls also come in "finished".  You instantly have a usable basement.  With Superior, you still have to finish.  The one thing I would like to see with Oasis is the possibility for "up insulating".  It just did not make economic sense to do it.  You can add extra insulation to the Superior walls, but you still have to finish.  Oasis walls are also more competitive with traditional poured walls.

Penn Lyon plant tour

Hi Ed,

Yesterday I took a tour of Penny Lyon's plant and met with one one of the sales managers named Perry Caflisch, who was familiar with your project, but not directly involved. We spoke very briefly about some of the problems you had. Since it wasn't my project or my place to get into details or solutions, I just mentioned that I was "concerned" that it appeared as though the company wasn't being more responsive.  Don't think I hurt you, but not sure I helped you either.

Overall I was fairly impressed with what I saw.  The "boxes" (base modules) look to be well made, and the electrical and plumbing worked looked good as well.  The finishes are of average quality and the workmanship is good, but not on the level of a high end home.  I think there's only so far you can go with upgrades.  Perry the sales manager said, "Think of us as a a subcontractor and have us do what what we do best."  In other words, some interior finishes, such as hardwood floors and tile are best left for on-site. Ditto for exterior finishes.  We'd have to go a lot further with on-site work to get the quality we're looking for, but I believe there are still significant cost/time benefits versus doing things the old way, particularly if we were to go with SIPs. 

The quality of the cabinets was a bit disappointing, as you said.  They look fine at first glance, but the slides and hinges are mediocre.  For inexpensive cabinets for our high end rentals we've had excellent experience with Ikea (not kidding).  With granite counters, the right plumbing fixtures and a well though out backsplace and the right lighting, they really can look surprisingly good.  And the Blum hinges and slides are perrty tought to beat for the price. Hopefully Penn Lyon can get your kitchen cabinet and other issues straightened out to the point where you're satisfied.

Gary

What $192k buys: PHENOMENAL

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the quick, highly detailed reply.  What you got for $192k is a phenomenal value, even considering some on the problems you've had to work through.

What I didn't mention in my last post is that I'm a builder/developer of high end residential single family spec homes, multi-family (apts/condos), and mixed use commercial projects in NJ. We've always done stick framing with sprayed foam with good results.  All aspects of our projects are subbed out. 

We've toyed with panelized framing and modular a bit, but were concerned about quality and design limitations.  Add to that labor issues (guys who want to do things they way they've always done them) and the savings just didn't outweight the risks/negatives.  We also priced one job with SIPs and I almost wet myself when I saw the number compared conventional stick framing w/foam (how does twice the cost grab you?). Finding a local, experienced SIP crew, as a less expensive alternative to the manufacturer's crew, was also a problem.  So, we stuck to doing things the old way.

When I accidentally found your site I got really excited!  What you've done is the future, the gold standard for energy efficiency, exactly what we've been looking for - all at a competitive price.  Wow!

For the product we build I think we'd have to stick with our own guys for many of the interior finishes to get the level of quality we and our customers expect, but so much could be done in the factory is far less time for significantly less cost.  We pay $96/hr for plumbers, $75/hr for electricians & HVAC guys, so it's not hard to realize savings in a hurry.

A few other questions:

- Is your GSHP system forced air or radiant?  How much of this was installed at the factory?  I'm assuming all duct work if forced air, PEX tubing if in-floor radiant?

- Is your pluming PEX (flex tubing) or standard copper? If PEX, where is the manifold located?

- How do you feel about the quality/value of the Penn Lyon's cabinetry?

- How much additional would it have been for a SIP roof versus trusses?

Thanks again,

Gary

More Answers...

Gary,

You might also be pleasantly surprised to hear that $192k was the - retail - price of the modules.  As a builder, you can expect it to cost less (as you would pay wholesale).  I urge you to contact Mickey Locey (VP of Sales for Penn Lyon) for more information.  Please tell him, Ed Gouin, sent you.  Perhaps it will help me get the last remaining service items taken care of. ;-)

- Is your GSHP system forced air or radiant?  How much of this was
installed at the factory?  I'm assuming all duct work if forced air,
PEX tubing if in-floor radiant?

Our GSHP system is forced air.  There are GSHP systems (a water-to-water unit) that can be used for radiant, but I am not sure how cooling would work (if at all) with that setup.  While we have not moved in yet, everyone who has worked or visited has commented on how comfortable the interior of our house is.  The house is very evenly heated - even with only two zones essentially controlling 4 floors.

- Is your pluming PEX (flex tubing) or standard copper? If PEX, where is the manifold located?

Primarily we have PEX.  The factory used the all plastic PEX, but our onsite work was done with FostaPEX (spelling?) - a plastic PEX pipe with an aluminum wrap.  We do not have a manifold.  All connections come together in the basement like "traditional" plumbing.

- How do you feel about the quality/value of the Penn Lyon's cabinetry?

Honestly, the cabinetry could be wonderful, but it's not because of a lack of attention to detail and the desire to save a buck.  The boxes are strong.  The structure is sound.  We have plywood boxes and solid maple fronts.   Finish (natural) is great, but fit is poor (doors and drawers don't line up).  Their "upgraded" drawer slides leave a lot to be desired.  They jamb.  The drawers fall off the rails and we haven't even moved in yet.  For a few dollars more, high quality soft close slides would be a much better option.   Upgrades (say to Cherry vs. Maple) are rather pricey and IMHO not competitive with the open market.  If you are doing high end homes, I'd definitely compare the costs of having the cabinets installed locally.  Coincidentally, cabinetry is one of our outstanding service items...  we still have no drawer fronts in one of our bathrooms and someone is coming out on Wednesday to address the misalignment issues.

- How much additional would it have been for a SIP roof versus trusses?

I don't recall the exact cost, but the SIP roof would be 100% site-built versus, the long perfected folding roof built in the factory (unless someone has figured out how to fold SIPs).  When you add in labor and additional crane time, the stick-built roof with spray foam will likely come out ahead.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Ed

 

 

Mr. Green Dreams

What exactly does $192k buy?

Hi,

Great site!

I haven't found any details on exactly what you are - and are not - getting in terms of interior and exterior systems and finishes - with your four modules for $192k.  Can you please elaborate?

Your house looks to be around 3,000sf (gross) of living space, correct?

Thanks,

Gary

Here is what do you get for $192k...?

I am likely to miss something, but here is a very good start:

  • R40 SIP exterior walls (two 58' x 15' modules and two 40' x 15' modules)
  • 12/12 pitch roof with storage trusses (makes "bonus" space usable with an 8' ceiling)
  • Three complete bathrooms and one half bath (all upgraded Moen fixtures installed).
  • Upgraded maple cabinets with plywood construction throughout (kitchen and all baths).
  • Turned 4' oak staircase (1st to 2nd floor) and paint grade stairs to 3rd.
  • Carpets for bedrooms (low grade).
  • 9' ceilings on first floor
  • Upgraded base mouldings throughout.
  • Washer, dryer, dishwasher, stove, refrigerator hookups.
  • Complete interior drywall (mostly finished)
  • Propane gas fireplace (Majestic).
  • Solid core interior doors throughout
  • i-Joist floor construction with 3/4" OSB decking
  • Additional insulation at band joists
  • Nearly complete electrical and plumbing systems.

The price also included complete customization of our design as well as delivery and setup of the modules.

Hope this helps clarify.

Regards,

Ed

 

Mr. Green Dreams

Did you have a choice of SIPs

I have wondered if a modular home builder would build a green home out of alternative materials. I was wondering, did Penn Lyons give you a choice of SIPS? I was thinking of steel SIPS. Also did you contact My Green Cottage? I ask because I was considering building a home with the foundation made of Prefab concrete (like Oasis) and the rest of the structure made of the Thermal Max Walls used by My Green Cottage.

JTT

Steel SIPS

I never heard of My Green Cottage before today so, no, I never contacted them. My primary research was for a company that uses SIPs to build modular homes. I found none.

We did not really have "our choice" of SIPs, however, I did personally introduce Penn Lyon to Murus. They make very high quality panels and are located quite close to Penn Lyon. One of the goals being - locally sourced materials.

One factor that has always been of concern is cost. Using SIPs to build a modular home makes - amazing - economic sense. Early on we received a quote for the exterior shell of this house (sans roofing, siding, doors, windows, or any interior components). The quote was $182,000.

We are getting a nearly complete modular house with a kitchen, 3.5 baths, and with R40 walls for roughly 10% more. Granted, there is still work to be done, but no where near what a site built house would have required.

Ed

Mr. Green Dreams